Finally, as I was doing some preliminary work in developing the deck on paper, I came across a handful of forgotten or obscure cards that just seemed highly exciting. As the deck began to coalesce I realized there were going to be quite a few cards in the deck I rarely or never play in EDH, so that really got me excited to branch out and play a deck that DOESN'T have Rite of Replication or Geth, Lord of the Vault for once.
Anyway, while I was browsing the forums at mtgcommander.net, I came across this list, posted by forum-goer Pysces (I've marked creatures with Trample with a (T) after the card name):
General: Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Green Creatures
Wood Elves
Eternal Witness
Spawnwrithe (T)
Oracle of Mul Daya
Brawn (T)
Genesis
Hystrodon (T)
Acidic Slime
Vigor (T)
Primeval Titan (T)
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (T)
Woodfall Primus (T)
Terastodon
Red Creatures
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Anger
Urabrask the Hidden
Hoarding Dragon
Hellkite Charger
Mana-Charged Dragon (T)
Charmbreaker Devils
Godo, Bandit Warlord
Flameblast Dragon
Akroma, Angel of Fury (T)
Greater Gargadon
Multicolor Creatures
Boartusk Liege (T)
Deus of Calamity (T)
Green Spells
Rancor
Regrowth
Survival of the Fittest
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Krosan Grip
Beast Within
Nature's Will
Triumph of the Hordes
Bear Umbra
Garruk Wildspeaker
Harmonize
Momentous Fall
Reap and Sow
Creeping Renaissance
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Tooth and Nail
Red Spells
Wheel of Fortune
Aggravated Assault
Seize the Day
In the Web of War
Savage Beating
World at War
Mana Geyser
Insurrection
Decree of Annihilation
Fanning the Flames
Multicolor Spells
Hull Breach
Artifacts and Colorless Spells
Skullclamp
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Vengeance
Sol Ring
Darksteel Ingot
Oblivion Stone
All Is Dust
Lands
38 Lands Total, including:
Kessig Wolf Run
Raging Ravine
Homeward Path
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Inkmoth Nexus
High Market
This list captured my attention right away, because it immediately looked to be a stronger deck that I expected when I clicked on the thread. It also looked like a lot of fun. I posted a comment or two in the thread and Pysces, the deck's creator explained some of his choices and reasoning. I quickly became enamored of the deck and put my own build in the development queue, where it sat mostly untouched for a few days, but then line-jumped it's way to the top and I spent most of last night brainstorming and researching Gatherer for ideas.
I want to stress that I don't consider this a "Deck Doctor" article, as Pysces has not expressed that he would like some stranger on the interwebs to overhaul his deck, and I'm quite sure he's capable of doing so himself should he deem it necessary. The point is, the changes I'll be making are for myself specifically, and will be largely determined by my own preferences, playstyle and metagame factors.
So, on with the show! The first thing I like to do is research cards on Gatherer for more on-theme cards. In this case the search is pretty easy: just search for Red and Green creatures with Trample! Those of you who follow me regularly will know that I am not the slightest bit reluctant to run "good stuff" inclusions in my decks, even when trying to push a thematic approach. That said, I like my initial builds to be as theme-heavy as possible and through playtesting, cut the weakest and least useful thematic cards for better stuff down the road.
So, to start with, I'm going to really push the trample theme as far as I can. Here are some potential candidates:
More Trample!
Borborygmos
Wilderness Elemental
Dragon Tyrant
Garruk’s Horde
Kaargan Dragon Lord
Living Hive
Primordial Hydra
Rampaging Baloths
Skinshifter
Skyshroud War Beast
Pelakka Wurm
Bramblewood Paragon
Moldgraf Monstrosity
Shivan Wurm
Even More Trample!
Gruul War-Plow
Loxodon Warhammer
Akroma's Memorial
Gaea’s Embrace
The Most Trample Ever!
Overrun
Overwhelming Stampede
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Baru, Fist of Krosa
Haste is another extremely good keyword in EDH, and Pysces already has a small Haste package so let's see if we can expand on that as well.
Oh, and Haste too!
Fires of Yavimaya
Sarkhan Vol
Lightning Greaves
I like tutors in my EDH decks, especially in those that don't have tons of pure drawing power.
Get Stuff!
Fauna Shaman
Tooth and Nail
Primal Command
Green Sun’s Zenith
Removal is king in Limited. It's pretty important in EDH too.
Get Rid of Stuff!
Indrik Stomphowler
Spitebellows
Duplicant
Bramblecrush
Into the Maw of Hell
Get Rid of Everything!
Balefire Dragon
Blasphemous Act
Savage Twister
Unfortunately, your opponents will almost definitely be running removal of their own. There's a damn good reason why graveyard hate is so critical in the format, and that is because recurssion is really powerful.
Get Stuff Back!
Vengeful Rebirth
Sword of Light and Shadow
And everyone who knows me is already aware of this, but I simply CANNOT play an EDH deck without some card draw. I draw cards. That's what I do.
Draw Some Cards!
Hunter’s Insight
Greater Good
Harmonize
Momentous Fall
Wheel of Fortune
Skullclamp
Sword of Fire and Ice
Pysces has a good ramp/fixing package already, but I have a couple of old favs in mind...
More Mana!
Skyshroud Claim
Gruul Signet
These last few are just some random good cards that I like and would like to find some room for. These will probably be added in, then cut for more on-theme stuff, then later on be added BACK in once I have played the deck to know which of the thematic cards aren't pulling their weight.
More Utility and Good Stuff!
Scavenging Ooze
Bellowing Tanglewurm
Avenger of Zenikar
Inferno Titan
Beastmaster Ascension
Rage Reflection
There's like zero GY hate in the deck, so I could easily roll over and die to a Living Death or Geth, Lord of the Vault. Scavenging Ooze is a great solution, but I probably need Relic of Progenitus too. But Relic isn't exciting, so I'll only include it later, if reanimation and recurssion start costing me games.
Bellowing Tanglewurm is probably better off in a mono-G deck, but I'll just tell you now that only 8 creatures remain in my finished list that don't have green in their color identity. With this in mind, I think the Tanglewurm will do just fine, if it makes it in the final cut.
Avenger of Zendikar is pretty much THE good-stuff posterboy for Green. And it happens to be pretty synergystic with the deck, even if not necessarily on-theme. Akroma's Memorial + Stonebrow + a bunch of Plants seems pretty likely to win me a game or two.
Inferno Titan is good. He doesn't have trample, but that's what Gruul War Plow and Akroma's Memorial are for. Duh.
Beastmaster Ascension is kinda like a permanent Overwhelming Stampede. That said I've seen folks try to make this work and fail. I remain cautiously optimistic.
Rage Reflection is almost guaranteed to never make it into the deck, without access to white for Academy Rector and other ways to tutor it up. That said, this does seem like a deck that can make mass-double-strike do impressive things.
Too many cards!
At this point, we obviously have way too many cards for potential inclusing, so let's start the editing process.
OUT:
Spawnwrithe - Cute, and I was hoping to give this guy a chance, but he seems weak in my Wrath-laden metagame.
Oracle of Mul Daya - I hate letting my opponents always know what my next draw is going to be. I will make an exception to this, but not for this card.
Terastodon - If only it had trample... Either way, I'm not a huge fan of this, because 99% of the times I see it cast it blows up three lands/mana rocks and pretty much ruins one person's fun.
Living Hive - I'd like to run this, but it's just so drastically outclassed by Avenger of Zendikar, I'd rather run Avenger despite the lack of trample on it.
Primordial Hydra - It's a neat idea, but probably not good enough. Really wants to be in a deck with Doubling Season.
Pelakka Wurm - I knew I was going to cut this, but for anyone needing a budget replacement for one of the rares or mythics, this card really is not bad at all. It's very playable, just not as good as some other stuff in the list.
Scavenging Ooze - A mistake, I'm sure, but I just realized it's already in another deck and I only have 1 copy at the moment. It's a tough cut but the other deck needs it more.
Bellowing Tanglewurm - Crap, I had to cut it after all. But I expect it to be one of the shortlisted cards to go back in once I decide some other card isn't good enough.
Squee, Goblin Nabob - I don't have a Survival of the Fittest and it's not worth it just for Fauna Shaman.
Anger - I have better options for Haste...
Hoarding Dragon - I'm not running enough artifacts that truly matter, plus I'm worried about this getting Exiled and screwing me over.
Hellkite Charger - Meh.
Godo, Bandit Warlord - I play this guy a lot, and since I'm downtuning the Equipment angle this guy seems unnessecary.
Charmbreaker Devils - Cool card, but I have other plans for it... mwah ha ha.
Flameblast Dragon - Cool, but not on-theme enough and not powerful enough to be a good-stuff inclusion.
Greater Gargadon - I just hate this card unless I suspend it on turn 1.
Balefire Dragon - Turns out I don't have one. Will definitely go in once I remedy this.
Shivan Wurm - Full of potential but I don't have enough ETBF effects to truly justify this.
Triumph of Hordes - Infect makes my playgroup mad, so this is a concession to them. Plus I like other things better.
Nature's Will - I foresee this being a dead card just a bit too often.
Bear Umbra - Possibly worthwhile, but I had to cut something and this loses to SoFF.
Krosan Grip - The addition of Indrik Stomphowler makes this a bit too redundant.
Garruk, Primal Hunter - Don't have one!
Survival of the Fittest - Don't have this either, added Fauna Shaman and some other stuff to compensate.
Regrowth - Beefed up the recurssion in other ways, this became redundant.
Reap and Sow - Meh. I like Skyshroud Claim better, and if I need to kill a land, there's always Acidic Slime.
Overrun - Of all the "overrun" variants, Overrun is the least exciting now. That's kinda sad.
Bramblecrush - Another card I probably need but cut for more exciting/cool things. May return later.
Sword of Feast and Famine - Using all my other copies at the moment. Will get added later, most likely.
In the Web of War - Sad to cut this, want to put it back... gotta find room via playtesting first.
Fanning the Flames - Meh.
Insurrection - This usually get's screwed over by everyone sacing all their guys to something. Rarely actually does what it's meant to do.
Aggravated Assault - I wanted to keep one of the extra attack step cards and eventually setlled on Savage Beating.
Seize the Day - Same as above.
World at War - Ditto, though I do like this card.
Mana Geyser - Seems like it could make shit-tons of Red mana, but what do I do with it all?
Into the Maw of Hell - I swear if this cost 5 mana, it'd never get cut!
Fires of Yavimaya - Fantastic card, but outclassed by Sarkhan Vol and Akroma's Memorial.
Sword of Fire and Ice - Using all my copies at the moment.
Sword of Light and Shadow - Ditto, but I do have one in a deck that can live without it. I just don't know what to cut instead, so this will just wait on the bench until I pull something else out.
IN:
That leaves us with the following list:
Creatures
Wood Elves
Eternal Witness
Brawn
Genesis
Hystrodon
Acidic Slime
Vigor
Primeval Titan
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Woodfall Primus
Garruk's Horde
Rampaging Baloths
Skinshifter
Skyshroud War Beast
Fauna Shaman
Indrik Stomphowler
Moldgraf Monstrosity
Avenger of Zendikar
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Baru, Fist of Krosa
Urabrask, the Hidden
Mana-Charged Dragon
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Dragon Tyrant
Inferno Titan
Kargan Dragon Lord
Spitebellows
Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Borborygmos
Wilderness Elemental
Boartusk Leige
Deus of Calamity
Duplicant
Spells
Tooth and Nail
Rancor
Beast Within
Harmonize
Momentus Fall
Creeping Renaissance
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Garruk Wildspeaker
Overwhelming Stampede
Green Sun's Zenith
Skyshroud Claim
Beastmaster Ascension
Greater Good
Savage Beating
Wheel of Fortune
Blasphemous Act
Hull Breach
Sarkhan Vol
Savage Twister
Vengeful Rebirth
Oblivion Stone
Gruul Warplow
Sol Ring
Gruul Signet
Darksteel Ingot
Sword of Vengeance
Skullclamp
Lightning Greaves
Loxodon Warhammer
All is Dust
Lands
If my count is correct, above are 64 cards, leaving room for only 36 lands. I'm not particularly comfortable with this number even with the added ramp stuff. I really feel I need to cut at least 1 more card, probably two. I rarely go below 38 lands in EDH, even with ramp... I'll sleeve this up later on and gold fish a bit to get a feel for it, but I can't know for sure how it'll play until I get some actual games in.
I can't wait, though! The deck looks hella fun to play.
Hey Thaumaturge
ReplyDeletePysces here, really glad you enjoyed my list!
I see you got excited a posted the blog before I had a chance to post my changes!
Some comments, mostly on some of the cards you've cut or dismissed.
The first one, and a biggy is Reap and Sow!
This card not only serves as land hate, but it fetches any land in your list, not just forest cards or basics.
This means it can fetch Kessig Wolf Run or Hall of the Bandit Lord. If you are really concerned about it being Skyshroud Claim, it can always fetch Temple of the False Gods for a close effect (not forests, but same acceleration).
Next card, Sarkhan Vol.
I didn't include him because in a list that wants to swing constantly, Planeswalkers suffer. In fact I cut all but Garruk, Primal Hunter because of this. Primal Hunter gets the nod because he is basically a draw card.
I think people underestimate Flameblast Dragon. He is a big threat for his cost and allows you to use your mana without over committing the board. Think of it like paying mana for an extra ball lightning on the attack. I value firebreather cards for this reason alone, but Flameblast Dragon and Mana Charged Dragon take the lead, because they can be pumped by any colour of mana, not just red.
You should consider Loaming Shaman if you can't find another Scavenging Ooze.
I knew about the weakness to graveyard recursion my list had and have since fit in Scavenging Ooze and want to fit Loaming Shaman in on top of that as well.
I'm not sure you need to push the global trample enablers up so much. Keep in mind they are only really good with Stonebrow out. I'd vastly prefer In the Web of War over Gruul Warplow for instance.
Otherwise, I can't comment much further, as you've largely explained your choices down to preference or not having the card.
I think Spitebellows and Kargan Dragon Lord are weaker cards you could cut.
I'm watching Mana Geyser and Spawnwrithe in my own list, so understand those cuts.
Cool, thanks for your thoughts, Pysces. I meant to save it for future publishing but hit publish out of habit. Oh well.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your reasoning on some of my changes. In particular, Sarkhan Vol seems like I might be in the wrong. But like I said, I like to start out pushing the theme as much as possible, then scale back to find the right balance between theme and good-stuff.
For Example Gruul War Plow may not be as good as In the Web of War, but it's more on-theme so I want to give it a chance to live or die on it's own strength. If it gets cut, oh well, more room for In the Web and other good cards!
Also I now have a better understanding on Reap and Sew, not that I ever disliked the card... But I was thinking of it as a Ramp spell first and formost, when really it's more of a utility spell that both neutralized and opponent's utility land while serving as a tutor for my own. Seeing as how I'm strongly considering Gaea's Cradle for my build, I think Reap and Sew is probably the correct choice.
Oh, and Spitebellows is a must-have for me. There are a LOT of 6-toughness creatures that I really need to be able to kill. Titans, Thraxi, Constipated Sphinx, just to name a few... those all see tons of play in my group and Bellows has been very good to me in the past.
Again, thanks for the additional input and counter-points. I will keep your suggestions in mind as I playtest the deck and when something doesn't quite work as well as I hoped, I'll refer back to your original list for revisions.
Yah with Reap and Sow, I treat it in the same vein as Shred Memory (another pet card of mine that I always try to fit in).
ReplyDeleteI'll aggressively cast Reap and Sow turn 4 all the time, treating it solely as ramp.
At worst it can also be a 4 costed Kodama's Reach by fetching Gruul Turf.
Late game, if I draw it, and I don't need the tutor, it's LD for problem cards or both when entwined.
Just a versatile card that (IMO) always deserves a spot in lists. Certainly in ones that value their utility lands.
Understand the reasoning for keeping cards like Gruul War Plow in. I too like to at least run cards before immediately cutting them. It's the same reason Spawnwrithe has stayed in my list!
Alright, so a couple quick updates for anyone watching at home... it turns out I'm not going to be physically assembling this deck for a couple weeks. I have a plan in my head to build a bunch of decks at once, so I am going to need to finish development on the other decks I want to build, and take inventory.
ReplyDeleteSo, actually sleeving up any new decks is temporarily on hold until I have 99% complete lists on paper for all the decks I'm building.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that this Stonebrow deck was originally planned to have a Werewolf sub-theme, which I why I was looking to go R/G in the first place... but after doing the dev work, I felt like the existing werewolves weren't compelling or numerous enough to be worth shoe-horning in a wonky sub-theme (Though I should point out that Full Moon's Rise is the PERFECT intersection of Stonebrow's theme and Werewolves as a theme).
Finally, I will be posting my theoretical lists as I complete them with notes on their development, and then I will post final lists once I have actually assembled and played each of the decks.